With Iraq on the verge of civil war, the Veep rattling his chains at Iran, half of New Orleans sitting in rotting debris, our healthcare system collapsing and Antarctica melting, the Republicans who run Congress have just announced plans to bring the “Flag Protection Amendment” to a vote this summer.
It is the second wedge issue campaign they have announced for the election season. Earlier, we learned they will vote on the gay marriage amendment this summer as well.
If things were going well, would they really need two wedge issues?
Here is the email from Dr. Frist, which was forwarded to me by an unnamed source:
Just a quick note to let you know that the Senate will debate the “Flag Protection Amendment” in the end of June. If it passes — and I will do everything in my power to see that it does — this constitutional amendment will give one of our Nation’s proudest and most treasured symbols the protection it deserves.
Polls have shown that roughly 80 percent of the American people want to vote on the right to protect the flag. In addition, all 50 state legislatures have passed resolutions asking Congress to pass an amendment — to be sent back to the states for debate and ratification.
Clearly, the American people have spoken. It’s time for the Senate to listen.
Battles have culminated in the raising of that flag. Countless U.S. soldiers have – using their last breaths – labored on the battlefield to hoist that flag. And desecrating it is an insult to their memory, and their sacrifice.
That flag represents all that we are — all that we stand for. Freedom. Liberty. It represents so much to so many. And I believe we have a moral obligation to rise as a body and declare that it is wrong to burn the flag of the United States of America.
- Topic: News & Comment
I continue to hear this “the American people” crap but does that include all of the American people or just the 51% of the 50% of the American people that voted Republican in the last presidential election?
I’m amazed that politicians continue to speak as if America is a functioning democracy.
What could be more cynical than for this administration to protect the physical flag
after weakening what the flag represents?
I would rather they debate defending our Constitution. As a friend of mine says,”I’d rather have someone who burns the flag and protects the Constitution, than someone who wraps themself in the flag and shreds the Constitution.
At least the GOP is consistant. They want to protect the flag itself, but destroy everything it once stood for.
This is the same stand they take on the Ten Commandments. They want to post them everywhere and at the same time ignore what it says.
I see that the Republicans have once again confused symbolism with mysticism.
Symbolism: The US flag represents the history and ideals of the United States of America.
Mysticism: Burning or defacing (not “desecrating”) a US flag somehow hurts the people of the United States of America.
Sounds pretty much like sympathetic magic. Is the flag nothing more than a voodoo doll?
Why not push an amendment to NOT BURN THE CONSTITUTION>
That’s right, don’t burn the flag. Instead, burn the Constitution! I thought the Constitution was supposed to give us rights, not take them away.
Why don’t they just make flags out of nonflamable material?
Here’s a compromise. I will go along with a no flag burning amendment, if they also include a lobbyist burning amendment too! Just one over paid Washington lobbyist has done more to disenfranchise Americans and corrupt Congress than all the flag burners put together.
Wow. I never thought by simply wanting to pass a law stating that it is illegal to burn our nation’s flag that so many people would get upset. Is this issue really worth the energy? You would think you Bush haters out there would pick a bigger cause to champion.
Maybe you should devote your time to saving the rain forest by developing new technology. Or is it just easier to complain?
The Republicans go bananas over a half dozen flag burnings in protest in the last few years and so they have to amend the Constitution to ban the practice. What’s next, the repeal of the religious establishment clause in the First Amendment allowing states to return to the pre-revolutionary right to establish churches. Don’t worry, citizens, fascism is on the way.
It’s not the idea of passing a law. The issue is enshrining the ban in the Constitution. Sine the Constitution is a document that is designed to outline the structure, responsibilities, and authority of the federal government, its purpose is to act as a foundation for laws written by Congress. Flag burning laws have failed Constitutional muster in the past, so now the idea is to amend the Constitution to include this law. The issue is partly the silliness of the proposal, but it’s also the idea that if we can’t win, we’ll change the rules. Changing the rules may get a short term gain for whatever cause this effort is trying to achieve, but the consequences of amending the Constitution for such trivial matters are really disturbing. An act of this sort weakens the Constitution.
So ask yourself this: How many times has there been an attempt to change the Constitution?
To see what kind of changes and how many have been attempted check out http://www.usconstitution.net/constamprop.html
Then decide if you really want to set up your soapbox.
Trust me, your getting worked up over an everyday occurrence. Both the Democrats and the Republicans abuse that poor ol’ paper. All politicians are out for themselves in the end. It is not as one sided as some would like it to look.
What I find fascinating is how Bush worshipers like Voodoo put their allegiance to Dear Leader above everything else — in this case, the Constitution of the United States, in which the right of free expression, no matter how distasteful to the majority of us, is guaranteed.
But none of that matters to the cult-like followers of the Emporer Bush. He is like Jesus to them — perfect and incapable of error.
The flag burning amendment has zero-zippedity-doo-dah to do with the protecting the flag, and you know it. It’s about putting Democrats on the record as hating the flag or whatever — when the real issue is protecting the First Amendment of the Constitution from the political shenanigans of zealots like kitten-killing Dr. Frist.
I haven’t flown an American flag since January 2001. I don’t plan to fly one while this country is held hostage to totalitarianism under this administration. They’re too despicable to be believed. They’ve dishonored the American flag every day with their blatant violations of the Constitution, and their contempt for our Republic. What’s the difference between burning the flag, and dragging it through the sewer? The GOP votes for one, while it does the other.
Hmmm, and I thought you guys were the compassionate ones. Wow. Madison you really have me summed up. For the record I don’t believe in the bible.
As I pointed out both sides have their issues. Neither side is better than the other. I’m just the one who likes to point out that your efforts could be used better if they were directed at a worthy cause.
You can complain about the cold or you can light a fire.
From the looks of it you will freeze.
As far as a cult following I can proudly say I vote for both Democrats and Republicans. I’ll bet you would rather die than vote for a Republican. So the question begs to be asked, “Who really is the ‘Cult-Like follower’?
FLY THE FLAG and also save the constution.
Well said Romelee. Plain and simple. :)
“Maybe you should devote your time to saving the rain forest by developing new technology. Or is it just easier to complain?”
Voodoo shows us how out of touch he and other Bush-worshippers really are with reality. Only a Republican afraid to discuss the current issues would mention using technology to save rainforests when discussing a proposed amendment to the Constitution.
Voodoo, did you have such a dim view of criticism during Clinton’s presidency?
Voodoo, your remark about the number of attempts to change the Constitution just supports my point. Any attempts to change the Constitution so your pet policy can’t be declared unconstitutional is wrong. Notice how nobody here is defending any other effort to change the Constitution. We are saying that this attempt is misguided.
Help me understand if I”m missing your point in that last post.
“FLY THE FLAG and also save the constution.”
-Romelee
“Well said Romelee. Plain and simple. :)”
-Voodoo
Yes, simple indeed;)
So in the example from the abortion debate, if you were in a burning building and could only save a petri dish with five blastocysts, or a two-year old infant…
A pro-choice person would save the toddler.
A Republican would grab the flag and run.
Actually during the Clinton administration i was frustrated so many people focused on the Lewinshi issue. I mean really, did Clinton do anything different than any other politician.
Peacedog, or should I say dad, you know better. ;-)
Chris, you know as well as any that a Republican would grab neither. Instead the Republican would say this is a travesty and then seek out a way to finance his political campaign by using the burning building as a backdrop.
The flag would give him the extra margin of credibility, and this would be hammered home in the MSM through election day.
Republicans: Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!!!
Let’s trash gays. Let’s trash immigrants. Let’s trash those damn commies who want to burn the flag!!
In the meantime, we’ll STEAL everything that isn’t nailed down, spy on everyone, and shred the Constitution – screw the Bill of Rights!
Welcome to the Theocratic Fascist Dictatorship of Amerika!!
We need an amendment banning flag burning amendments
They do this every 2 years. They scream and jump up and down about it, and then it doesn’t pass.
Fly the flag upside down as a sign of distress as long as Republicans control all three branches of the U.S. Government.
Bush waves hello to everyone not in the upper one percent tax bracket:
http://ostroyreport.blogspot.com/2006/03/great-bush-divide.html
Voodoo,
The issue of amending the Constitution to ban flag-burning–hardly a pressing issue warranting the radical action of amending the Constitution…I mean, how often do we hear of flags being burned in this country?–is phony…it’s a chance for the Republicans to posture before the public at a time when their President has been caught in countless lies, when his war in Iraq–a criminal act in iteself–has let loose the continuing criminal acts of abuse and torture of Muslim captives by American forces, as well as the criminal act of secret, warrantless wire-tapping of thousands of persons unknown and unchecked by Congressional oversight–and, in general, it allows them another pretense at “patriotism” and “virtue” which they cannot claim for themselves through their actions.
For them, it’s a purely hollow, symbolic bit of political piety, a dumb-show.
For we who oppose such an amendment, it is a crucial matter, as it goes to the heart of the First Amendment guarantee: how “free” is our speech? How MUCH protest are we permitted by our masters?
The founders wrote the First Amendment to protect our right to protest against governmental malfesance and tyranny, to object to wrong-headed policies, to uncover and report corruption and abuse of power by those entrusted with it, to prevent the silencing of critics by “sedition” laws and other such measures which aim to oppress those who disagree with those in power.
Why does anyone burn a flag? What does it mean? What significance does it have?
While some may burn a flag trivially, its rarity as a public act would indicate this is not a common practice. More likely, one burns a flag to indicate such disgust with the policies of the standing government that one can find no stronger statement to make to indicate that disgust. Agree or disagree with those who might feel such disgust or who would choose this method to express it, the First Amendment gives us this right.
If the flag represents anything, it represents our RIGHT to burn it, if we feel so compelled.
To ban flag burning by Constitutional Amendment–aside from canceling out the First Amendmenet–is to make the flag an object of holy veneration, rather than just a cloth standard which represnets our country. It says, “America is not a place where freedom of speech is honored, it is a place where thought which is objectionable may be curtailed, and where the principles we declare are only for show.”
Such an amendment makes a mockery of the America the founders established.
Robert~
Those are a lot of big words. We’re not but humble pirates.
Wow. Looking at it that way then I would have to ask, how do you sleep at night with all that consiracy stuff running through your brain.
For decades the people that are “against the man” have been running around screaming that their freedom of speech is being taken away.
Try voicing your oppinion in Iran and see what becoomes of you.
I would veture to say that your precious freedom of speech is well protected and I doubt that any one is going to pass an amendment banning the burning of United States flag.
All I see here is a horde of “Civil” militants posturing and strutting to sound as if they are part of an elite special ops team about to wage battle against the evil tyranny of a ruthless dictator. Yet most of them probably haven’t even volunteered to help out a local organization. I’m sure there are people in other countries that would scoff at you. You know not of repression and the denial of Rights.
You think it is only the Republicans that make a mockery of our political system? I won’t deny that they do. I just want you to realize that in order to protect the Rights that you fear will be taken from our good citizens don’t over look the serpent behind you.
I’m surprised none of the Repub. Flag protectors were Boy Scouts. I learned both in the Boy Scouts and the Navy (not at all surprised they haven’t served) there is only ONE correct way to dispose of a flag that is tattered, ripped, faded or stained. Guess how the disposal is to be carried out……Right. The flag is to be BURNED. Talk about a catch 22! That Amendment would make us all law-breakers, which is something fascism loves anyway. Keep ‘em riddled with guilt.
Voodoo,,,
Of course I don’t think it is only the Republicans who make a mockery of our political system…but they are the ones in power right now, so they have more opportunity to show their hypocrisy and to feign virtue as they rape our Constitution and our treasury.
I do not, however, think the Democrats, even in power, are quite so brazen and monolithic in their obeisance to power, in their betrayal of their public trust.
At this time, the Democrats shame themselves and the political system in failing to act as a true opposition party, in having been too quick to cede authority rightfully their to a usurper President, and to fight too little as he takes for himself authority they have not already surrendered.
I don’t really know whether we can salvage our system at this point; it may be too late.
As to whether anyone will succeed in passing a flag-burning amendment, I wouldn’t be so sure they won’t succeed. Even as they may attempt it every other year merely as a pretense at virtue and defense of the republic, they may try often enough that at some point they may surprise themselves and succeed.
As I say, flag-burning is so rare that–aside from the absurdity of there being any need for an amendment to “protect” the flag–I cannot imagine many people would find there to be a direct impact on their daily political expression.
However, it is the import of such an amendment which would be significant and dire: it would enshrine into the Constitutional fundament of our country the idea of heresy, that there things which one CANNOT DO, ideas one cannot broach, dogma one cannot repudiate, means of expression which–harming no one, and being purely symbolic in meaning–are forbidden.
Now, just a few of the problems such an amendment would create if actually enacted
Which US flag-EXACTLY-is covered by the C.A.?
Is it the current 50 star version only?
How about other counter-culture versions of the flag, say the one with a peace symbol in place of the stars?
How about burning a picture of the US Flag, and if so, does that apply only to color photographs, or b&w and sepia toned pictures as well?
How about drawings, would burning flag drawing be breaking the law here, and if so, would it depend on how well-done the artwork is? And if someone deliberately draws as bad & goofy a picture of the US flag as possible, is that a legally punishable offense?
How is using napkins & paper plates with US Flags on them NOT breaking the law, for that matter, what about cakes decorated as the flag, would it now be a jailable offense to actually eat such a visually alluring confectionary offering?
Is one allowed to throw away those full-page US flags printed in so many newspapers on July 4th, or are we required to save them, and if so, how reverently must they be stored & maintained to avoid going to jail?
Will the largest groups which burn flags-the Boy Scouts & Veterans Groups-now be prohibited from disposing of old & worn out flags, or will they get a special dispensation to violate the law others will get punished for breaking?
If they get that dispensation, what kind of signal does that send to children, that a group can break the law that applies to others?
How does gutting the 1st Amendment expand freedoms people have died for in combat, how does it make us a safer society, how does it put money in one’s pockets & food on one’s table?
What is the difference in chemical compositions of flags defiled to make a political point vs those burned for being old & worn out, and since there is none, then how can one’s intent possibly be determined with anything short of an uncoerced confession?
Say I videotape myself burning an old, worn out flag, and I state that I’m doing it to both show it proper respect AND to protest a governmental policy, the issue then becomes what was my intent at the moment the flame caught the fabric
I think the term “ThoughtCrime” applies best here
How many people have actually seen a flag burned right in front of their own eyes-NOT on tv, but something witnessed itself?
Not many I’d venture, as this is something that happens so rarely in this country that it makes the news when it does occur, so is it really worth changing the Constitution to prohibit something very few of us ever witness in person?
Politicians who use the flag as a political prop/backdrop at any campaign function defile it far worse than anyone else they condemn on the issue, and when people really think about what such a CA would actually entail, they end up being against the idea
Whcih means all of us who love & use the 1st Amendment have a lot of reaching out & making our case to do with the very constituents the politicians are trying to attract with their cheap, tawdry & politically offensive pandering, we have logic on our side, and we will keep this Amendment from ever making it into the Constitution
And I’m sure there’s lots of other real-world questions that should probably be answered before publicity whore politicians & their media lackeys get to waste lots of taxpayer dollars on legal actions that, even with the current makeup of the US Supreme court, will be knocked down as unconstitutional, just as it was with the 1989 decision that struck down this obviously less-than-well-thought-out legal strategy
Robert~
Very eloquently put. It would seem that you and I are not from similar view points. It may be only a mater of semantics. I could imagine that you would have enjoyed the debates I had with some of my friends over a nice glass of Merlot this evening.
I still feel that the debate over the purposed amendment is quite trivial in relation to other current world events, but that is just my opinion.
Rick~
I am a former 67Y. That is a Cobra Crew Chief to the civilians. I am fully aware of the proper disposal of the American flag. If you have one that needs to be disposed of your local American Legion can assist you. I am sure there are provisions made in the purposed amendment for the proper disposal of the flag; Even though I doubt the amendment would pass. It is just fluff that some politicians have put out there to rile up the public.
The snow is falling and the wind is howling. ‘Tis late and I yearn for slumber.
Good night =-)
this is hilarious considering how many american flags are made in china, as a veteran i should care about this, why? my service to country was for the ideals and principles of freedom, not some silly piece of cloth. if these guys are really going to be this ignorant then I vote for a constitutional amendment to protect the rights of flag burners everywhere…oh wait, that’s the free speech portion of the constitution…sorry.
Voodoo – Tell me again why it’s the Democrats’ fault that Dr. Frist and the Republicans are bringing up this amendment? A casual observer might think Frist would have other priorities, but all he seems to be doing right now is helping President Bush sell our ports to Ay-rabs and this bogus flag burning amendment.
This is all I have to say. When fascism comes it will be wrapped in the American flag.
“Peacedog, or should I say dad, you know better. ;-)”
Voodoo,
I seriously doubt you’re from any litter of mine;)
What about burning a near-replica of the American flag?
What about flying the American flag atop a hill of dung?
What about letting the flag touch the ground on purpose?
Would it be a felony to draw a cartoon which
desecrates the flag?
When do we start protecting the Bible and the Cross?
This is a very serious issue, a federal law would follow that could be arbitrarily enforced, which would
carry very heavy penalties. It is a subjective thing,
the determination of whether a person has desecrated
a flag. The gentleman talked about disposing a flag,
if you dispose a flag you could be playing with the
rest of your life, because someone might say the
flag didnt need to be disposed or that you disposed
it wrong.
I take issue with saying this is a trivial issue,
that is nothing more than a fraudulently disuised
argument, and you talk about wasting time.
Everyone send this off to the black hole of your representatives, just for fun.
Wasn’t the flag burning law the brain child of criminal Duke Cunningham,in the months before his fall? Who will be the new standard barer for it? Frist? Seems like it”s only trotted out and dusted off when the skita is hitting the air condtioning
KingCranky is right on the money – this bill would codify “Thought Crime”, and therefore is of utmost concern to all Americans who value free speech. Voodoo is similarly correct about one matter: its not just a Republican thing. Everyone concerned with this issue should be aware that Hillary Clinton explicitly supports this proto-fascist legislation.
Concerned progressives cannot allow the Democratic party to limit our political choices in the way they seem intent on doing – putting up candidates who counter Republican/fascist wedge issues by adopting the right-wing platform! Tell the DNC that you have no use for the Repuiblican mimicry of Hillary.
Madison~
I don’t recall saying it was the Democrats fault. If that is what you perceived I said, then I apologize.
My point is that both parties are making and issue out of this as if we don’t already have enough or even more serious issue to deal with. The Republicans bait and the Democrats fall for it. It is a game and I am but a spectator watching in amusement.
Peacedog~
What is funny is how often I see a parent and their child with totally opposite political views. I see a lot of disappointed parents. ;-)
Orion~
It is illegal to deface U.S. Currency. How many people have you seen arrested for doing such a thing? I don’t think you will be doing any time with Bubba for burning a flag.
Expand the Flag Burning amendment to include foreigners desecrating the US flag.
Give the NSA/CIA something to do…monitor foreign news for mob scenes of US flags being burned.
Then build a data base of those individuals, pressure foreign countries to prosecute those individuals, or else no aid, weapons, from the US and of course include US Constitution violators in the no-fly, no entry visa data base.
Apparently to the Wingnuts the flag is at least as sacred as any publication that insults the Islamic faith is to muslims.
“Apparently to the Wingnuts the flag is at least as sacred as any publication that insults the Islamic faith is to muslims.”
sorry for the typos, I mean to say that the flag is held as sacred by the wingnuts as the Quran and any statements concerning the Islamic faith is to muslims.
“What is funny is how often I see a parent and their child with totally opposite political views. I see a lot of disappointed parents. ;-)”
-Voodoo
What is sad is how often children merely parrot their parents’ political views, even to the point of wasting any opportunity to think for themselves and rise above the petty biases and hypocrisies they suckled as children. While you value obediency and conformity, I value dissent and rebellion. Parents aren’t the only ones dissappointed…
Vote Repulican: Save the flag! Burn the Constitution!
Peacedog~
I figured you would have understood what I was saying. Did you not catch what I said about you possibly being my father?
He and I have very different political views.
The other thing that I thought you would have picked up on was the fact I am saying both sides are bad. I refuse to follow either side like a lemming.
I never said I value obedience and conformity. You might not realize this but by saying you value dissent and rebellion you are acting like the rest of your group which would be considered conformity. But that is ok if you like to be different like everyone else.
Hasn’t anybody heard of Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1? There’s a whole body of law about the flag. It’s called The Flag Code! We don’t need no stinking amendment.
Voodoo,
I acknowledged the confusion for your father bit with my “litter” comment. Forgive me for assuming you valued obedience and conformity. I thought you were being sympathetic to “dissappointed parents.” I should’ve realized you weren’t really commenting here to make any kind of a stand for an issue or a point. My bad.
Regardless of what biases you may have against rebellion and dissent, I have held those qualities near and dear to my heart ever since I was old enough to read about Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and our other forefathers and their acts of defiance.
Which “group” is it you refer to as mine? And if I am so much “like everyone else,” how come the people I vote for rarely even come close to winning?
Peacedog~
Your “group” would be the group that is against the “Man”
It’s the same people that will always root for the underdog no matter what the reason. It doesn’t matter if they are in the right or wrong; just as long as they are the underdog so your group can be the poor minority.
Group Motto: “Look at us. We’re the victim”
As for the reason why your candidates “rarely even come close to winning”, well, I guess it is either poor choices or you just refuse to do anything that the rest of us want.
I can imagine that your school records show that you never participated in group activities unless you were holding a sign protesting something. At least your school probably had good cafeteria food for fear of another rally.
Vooodoo,
Like I said, you value obedience and conformity. Your ridiculous assumptions about my academic career are just more evidence of your desire to troll while not making a stand for any principle or ideal.
The bottom line is that an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to ban the burning of the American flag isn’t just “bad cafeteria food,” it is bad constitutional law. Most of the other posts here from other people document this fact quite well.
It’s both ironic and sad that you don’t like to hear anyone complain unless it’s you complaining about the complaining. It also makes you look ridiculous.