Yes on 8 Says Mormons Donated About Half Its $40 Mil Budget

New York Times:

Protect Marriage estimates [that] as much as half of the nearly $40 million raised on behalf of the measure was contributed by Mormons.


  • November 18, 2008 - 2:00 pm | Permalink

    Let’s see, millions of people starving around the world and the LDS gives half its budget to oppose gay marriage? Gotta love their priorities…

  • Max
    November 19, 2008 - 11:22 am | Permalink

    Acctually they did not give half of their own budget, they contributed to half of the budget used for prop 8. And they do give to the poor and needy around the world, and It is way more than just $20 million. They were one of the first on the scene for Katrina and the first on the scene for many many more disaster. Why don’t you guys lay down your attacks on the mormons and do something else like… maybe put your time towards helping out at a local homless shelter or donate money to the poor… Worrying about the mormons will get you nowhere. Even if you converted all of them to your way of life, there are still several others around the world that you have to convert too. You guys are doing the exact same things you claim the mormons were doing. By the way, no on 8 raised more money for their campaign, obviousely no on 8 should have won if money was really the issue.

  • November 19, 2008 - 11:53 am | Permalink

    Max is right in that the Mormon Church reportedly has $11 billion in holdings. The $20 million they donated was half the budget of the anti-civil rights forces in the Prop 8 fight.

    But Max is wrong about the reason Prop 8 passed. It had nothing to do with who raised the most money and everything to do with the fact that by lying in their ads, Christians behind Prop 8 were able to convince low-information voters that if Prop 8 didn’t pass school children would be recruited by gays and churches who refuse to perform gay marriages would lose their tax exempt status, etc.

    Last time I checked, the Bible says lying is an even worse sin that being gay. Lying is prohibited in the Ten Commandments. Being gay is not. So it appears that supporters of Prop 8 are going to hell along with the rest of us.

  • Max
    November 19, 2008 - 3:40 pm | Permalink

    I am not trying to be contentious but no on 8 never did have any evidence that yes on 8’s ads were a lie. There may be a lot of people saying “Hey they lied!” But there is no evidence yet that their ads had lies in them.

  • November 19, 2008 - 5:10 pm | Permalink

    You must not have seen the ads, Max. None of the Yes on 8 ads I saw were even remotely truthful. If Yes on 8 had told the truth, Prop 8 would have lost.

    From Mormons Stole Our Rights:

    They told us we would lose the right to participate in our children’s education. Lies.

    They told us the California state public school curriculum would be modified to teach sex education to kindergartners. Lies.

    They told us churches would lose the right to free speech. Lies.

    Also, gay marriage won’t be “taught in the schools.” No type of marriage is taught in the schools. The California Superintendent of Schools produced an ad in which he said the Yes on 8 claiming such was false. Pepperdine University made Yes on 8 pull the university’s name from the Yes on 8 ad in part because it was factually incorrect.

    Churches won’t lose their tax exempt status if they don’t perform gay marriages. It would be a violation of the U.S. Constitution to do so. (Plus, why would gay people want to get married in a church that hates gays?)

    Generally, it is just a lie that children who are around gay people become gay. Proof: All gay people spent their childhoods around heterosexuals but were not indoctrinated into heterosexuality.

    What’s additionally sickening about these ads is that were produced by a man, Frank Schubert, whose sister is gay. He sold out her civil rights for 30 pieces of silver.

  • Max
    November 19, 2008 - 11:49 pm | Permalink

    none of those can be verified and you can not be 100% sure that those rights would not be taken away. Talk about civil rights. You have the right to bare children but you give that up when you enter a gay marriage. Yeah you can adopt, but you give up the right to make one with your partner. This is no civil rights case.

  • November 20, 2008 - 5:51 am | Permalink

    Max or Dot, or whatever your name is, no one who can read and comprehend 8th grade English denies that the right to marry is a civil, not a religious, right. The proof of this obvious — governments, not churches, issue marriage licenses. Courts, not churches, grant divorces.

    Here is the wording, in its entirety, that Prop 8 has inserted into the California Constitution:

    “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”

    That’s it. There is nothing more. Proposition 8 does not prevent one school child from learning about gay marriage, nor does it prevent a single church from losing its tax exempt status.

    Conversely, if Prop 8 had failed, the same is true: Not one school child would have been forced to learn about gay marriage, nor would a single church have lost its tax exempt status.

    Prop 8 does not protect society from any of the scary things it promised it would in the ads. Your side lied about this, just as you’re lying about it now.

    You’ve made it abundantly clear that you don’t care about the facts. Your Dittohead tactics are as transparent as they are idiotic and tiresome.

  • Max
    November 20, 2008 - 12:52 pm | Permalink

    So do you call people names jon when they don’t agree with you? I mean is that the best you can do? In stead of opening your eyes to a different view(the way you want mormons to) or getting the facts straight you just resort to calling people names? Why don’t you be as mature as you want the mormons to be. Set the example yourself. How sad. You want to know the real reason prop 8 was passed, look at your posts in these blogs. Look at what the protesters are doing to people who voted yes. I didn’t see mormons out there rallying for 8 with signs using hate words for the gay community. Come on. This is ridiculous.

  • ryan
    December 11, 2008 - 7:16 pm | Permalink

    Hey Jon, what about the lies that the no on 8 campaign put forth in their ads. You know, the one that shows Mormons going in and stealing some lesbian couples marriage license and tearing it up in front of their faces. Granted, it’s understood that they are trying to make a point, but don’t you consider this offensive. The gay community continually wants equality and freedom with the marriage subject, but it’s equality a freedom that allows not just the Mormon community, but many other religions and people out there to speak their voice too. There is only about 800,000 Mormons in California, over 13 million voted yes on 8. You can see the numbers. The gay community
    also need to understand that their actions speak louder than words. When they protest in front of L.D.S. temples and hurt little old ladies, who aren’t even Mormon, maybe they don’t deserve the right to speak up and demand rights. They can’t even do it peacefully. Give me a break. They lost twice, it’s the voice of the majority and it’s all that counts.

  • ryan
    December 11, 2008 - 7:30 pm | Permalink

    Hey Jon, what about the lies that the no on 8 campaign put forth in their ads. You know, the one that shows Mormons going in and stealing some lesbian couples marriage license and tearing it up in front of their faces. Granted, it’s understood that they are trying to make a point, but don’t you consider this offensive? The gay community continually wants equality and freedom with the marriage subject, but it’s equality a freedom that allows not just the Mormon community, but many other religions and people out there to speak their voice too. There are only about 800,000 Mormons in California, over 13 million voted yes on 8. You can see the numbers. The gay community
    also need to understand that their actions speak louder than words. When they protest in front of L.D.S. temples and hurt little old ladies, who aren’t even Mormon, maybe they don’t deserve the right to speak up and demand rights. They can’t even do it peacefully. Give me a break. They lost twice, it’s the voice of the majority and it’s all that counts.

  • ryan
    December 11, 2008 - 7:31 pm | Permalink

    sorry for the comment twice.

  • December 13, 2008 - 7:45 am | Permalink

    No problem, Ryan. Thanks for spamming us. But it is a lie that the “old lady” was hurt in Palm Springs. She showed up at a civil rights rally carrying a cross. Someone rudely jostled her and the cross fell, but she was not hurt.

    Conversely, the Mormon ad was not a “lie,” it was an analogy. (In the Christian Bible, they’re called “parables.”) The fact that you can’t recognize the difference between the two explains why you are Republican.

  • ryan
    December 17, 2008 - 10:05 am | Permalink

    No, it is true that an old hispanic couple at the L.A. Temple were injured only days after the election who were not Mormon. And yes, the ad is a lie due to the fact that Mormons were just an easy target for hypocrites like yourself, that once someone stands against you, and stands up for something they believe in, can’t seem to deal with defeat. Remember, over 13 million people voted yes on 8, Not only 800,000. So why pick on the Mormons, because their an easy target for you and which makes it easy to see you actually don’t know the facts. If criticism is in order it should be directed toward the Justices that went ahead and made such a drastic change in May when the people had already spoken in 2000 on prop 22.
    And what would you know about the Bible. It clearly speaks of the wrong of homosexuality. Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” lets define “abomination” shall we. The dictionary defines it as a vile, shameful, or detestable action, condition, habit, etc.
    So don’t be so judgmental toward the Mormons when you yourself deem the gay communities actions worthy.

  • December 17, 2008 - 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Ryan, you’re the one who has his facts wrong. The vote for Prop 8 was 7,001,084. The vote against it was 6,401,482. So it’s incorrect to say that 13 million people voted in favor of it.

    You need to supply sourcing on the injured hispanic couple at the LA temple. I live in LA and have read nothing about anyone being injured in any protests in Los Angeles.

    Mormons from outside the state donated about half the $40 million raised by the so-called Christians behind the Yes on 8 hate campaign. This was an incredibly stupid move, because Mormons now have tens of million gay and non-gay enemies they didn’t have before they meddled in this issue, which was none of their business. Most Americans didn’t know much about Mormons before this episode. Now the truth is going to come out — the massacre at Mountain Meadows, the child rapes. All of it.

    And it’s Mormons who are hypocrites. Your leaders still practice “spiritual” polygamy, as you know.

    What’s sick about this is that the Mormon leadership urged their members to send money because the leadership was humiliated by the way Mitt Romney was treated by evangelicals. By persecuting gays, the Mormon leaders figured, they would get in good with evangelicals. This is never going to work, because evangelicals are among the most hateful and least tolerant of all Americans, for one thing, but primarily because evangelicals consider Mormonism to be a demonic cult.

    I’ve read the Bible, Ryan, and the Book of Mormon. Have you? If you have, you know the Bible says a lot of things. For example:

    Jesus defined the love of money as an abomination, which makes me think that Mormons, with their $13 billion empire, are all going to hell.

    Eating ham is an abomination. Deuteronomy 14:8: “The pig also because it is a splitter of the hoof but there is no cud. It is unclean for you. None of their flesh must you eat and carcass you must not touch.”

    Eating shellfish like shrimp and lobster, as well birds like ostriches, is an abomination: Leviticus 11:10-19: “But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you.

    “And these you shall have in abomination among the birds, they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, the kite, the falcon according to its kind, every raven according to its kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk according to its kind, the owl, the cormorant, the ibis, the water hen, the pelican, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron according to its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.”

    Eating leftovers is abomination: Leviticus 19:7: “If it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination.”

    Reading your horocope is an abomination: Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you.”

    Burning incense is an abomination: Isaiah 1:13: “Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies — I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.”

    Women wearing pants is an abomination: Deuteronomy 22:5: “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.”

    People who work on Sundays, who lie, who disrespect their parents, who are envious of their friends, and who commit adultery are all going to hell.

    And finally, Ryan, you are going to hell, because Jesus said, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

    See you there!

  • ryan
    December 17, 2008 - 6:37 pm | Permalink

    Maybe you haven’t quite gone out to actually see what the church does with that over $13 billion. Much of it is supplied through not only tithing, but yes many other wise investments. But what does the Mormon church do with it? Humanitarian relief. “The Church conducts humanitarian activities worldwide. From 1985 to 2007 Humanitarian Services provided more than $1.01 billion in total assistance to needy individuals in 165 countries.” And is the Mormon church in holding of that much money because of love for it or to be able to do good with it. Give me a break.
    There is a reason that the Mormon chuch gives tithes. And when there are over 12 million members world wide, it can build quickly.
    Deuteronomy 14:22: “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.”
    It’s so that in times of emergency we have the ability to help others, since we’re not living in the wilderness for 40 years.
    Yeah, and all those scriptures you quote from whatever bible, other than the King James version, maybe you should find them in context. It might be important to know that the reason those things were said to Moses, who repeated the revelation from God to the people in the wilderness, was because there were times at which the people would go hungry. Notice it says not to touch the carcass, that’s because the dead animal could bring diseases to the people. These animals that were mentioned were considered unclean and could cause them to be sick at the time.
    Swine lack cud so they lack the ability to really separate the nasty things they eat. In those times they were really more like wild boars and had many toxins in their bodies. They did and still do eat almost anything, including feeding on carcasses of other animals, making a human very sickly if they consumed a swine during the time of Moses.
    It’s changed now days because of our abilities to process food and really sterilize it making it consumable.

    They didn’t have freezing abilities back then so they certainly couldn’t store dead animals that we can do so easily today. Get the context correct because it’s clear you don’t. So obviously I have read it or maybe I could just pick out scriptural reference and make it seem like I know what I’m talking about. The fowl feed off of dead animals and can survive the affects. Humans can’t feed on these animals which the birds feed off of. But it does mention, however, that they can feed on clean fowl. So don’t confuse the subject by making moot points because really you have nothing backing the fact that then and still today we are human as we ever were in times of Moses. Homosexuality is a habit, like smoking, or drinking, or other kinds of sins that a person has the ability to control one’s actions. That’s the reason “abomination” is specified in the quote about homosexuality in Leviticus.
    Over eating is also an abomination. Which is why in the Doctrine and Covenants that Joseph Smith was revealed specifies not to do it in the Word of Wisdom.

    Fantastic, you’ve read the Book of Mormon. From the sounds of it, you don’t believe in anything it says anyway.
    Big deal by the way on the numbers of how many voted 13 million 7 million, the point is that just because Mormons are more willing to stand up for what they believe in doesn’t constitute your bagging on them. That was my point from the beginning. We don’t “hate” homosexuals, we just don’t agree with the sin. Nobody is perfect, and the only thing the church tries to portray is its ability to help others become better within themselves.
    If you’re a homosexual, big deal, you still have many of the same rights as any married couple. If you believe in getting married so strongly, go to Mass. You don’t have to stay in California.

  • December 17, 2008 - 7:38 pm | Permalink

    My partner and I were married in California this year on our 29th anniversary. I have been to Massachusetts. It’s nice but I have no desire to live anywhere but California. The Constitution protects my rights equally, why should I be forced to move to another state to enjoy my rights?

    No legitimate, scientific authority believes that being gay is a choice. Did you choose to be straight, Ryan? If so, how many same-gender sexual encounters did you have before you decided, “Eh, not for me.” If you didn’t choose — couldn’t have chosen — what makes you think anyone else can? And if it were a choice, why would anyone decide to join a hated minority?

    This is not about morality or the Bible. It’s 100 percent about homophobia — which is bigotry and, yes, hatred.

    Here’s proof: The Bible indicates that adultery is a much worse sin than being gay. Adultery is one of the Ten Commandments and is the subject of strong admonishments in both testaments. By comparison, homosexuality is barely mentioned.

    Adultery causes serious societal problems. It is the real threat to “traditional marriages,” half of which end in divorce, mostly because of adultery. Adulterers’ injured parties suffer severe emotional stress and quite often financial hardship.

    Adultery is the leading cause of single-parent households. Children of adulterers are often emotionally scared for life.

    And yet Mormons and Christians do nothing. They no have plans to rescind adulterers’ civil rights. Adulterers are free to remarry and adopt children. Adulterers can’t be fired or evicted because of their status as sinners. And yet gay people can.

    Why are adulterers allowed to enjoy full civil rights without persecution, but Mormons will spend $20 million to rescind the right to marriage — to happiness — for gay people?

    Why is that, Ryan?

  • ryan
    December 18, 2008 - 2:07 pm | Permalink

    As a matter of fact Jon, the Mormons do try very strongly to encourage staying married and not getting a divorce. In fact divorces in the Mormon church are significantly lower than the rest of the United States. And yes, I understand adultery is very wrong, it is why, most of the time, except certain circumstances, adulterers are excommunicated from the church.

    But, once again a moot point. I believe that if I were in your situation I would probably feel close to the same, who knows. But adultery happens to be against civil law as well, but nothing really ever happens because it still falls under our freedom of exercise. Yes it has to do with religion, but that is exactly why nobody ever really touches it. Same goes for gays. People look the other way because it’s too touchy of a subject.

    But in any case, are homosexuals immune to adultery, divorce, or causing mental scarring for children. Of course not.

    And by the way, it’s not about hatred, or bigotry, get off the, “everybody hates me” bandwagon and grow up. Mormons did. You don’t see Mormons asking for handouts, constantly crying to the government for equal anything. If you read the Book of Mormon you would know how much hatred and bigotry was shown toward us in New York, Missouri, and many other states before finally finding Salt Lake. My people were killed, raped, murdered, tarred and feathered on a regular basis. I don’t remember Mormons going out to a gay community gathering and rallying around them writing hateful remarks on streets in front of them. That doesn’t happen because I guess you could say we were being a little more Christ like than you pretend be.

    Oh yeah, homophobia? Once again, the only person portraying the gay community as a plague is yourself. I’m from Idaho. And before you think “oh no wonder, he’s a ‘redneck’ that doesn’t understand diversity” take a step back and remember who’s really being closed minded here. I happen to have a very close lesbian friend. She happens to be in the Military with me. I have accepted her from the beginning and everything about her. Hell, she even thinks my wife is hot. How many really great Mormon friends do you happen to have? Do they hate you now and not accept your way of life now? Seriously, quit your cryin’ and move on. You got married to your husband, now just spread your acceptance of loss to the rest of the gay community and understand Mormons don’t hate gays, we just happen to believe the choice is wrong, just as strongly as you think it is right.

    And I happen to be a “victim” of a divorced family. It happened when I was 2. But guess what, it made stronger as a husband and is the driving force in all the things to do as a husband and father of 3 at 27 years old.

  • ryan
    December 18, 2008 - 2:08 pm | Permalink

    And congrats Jon on the Anniversary. Sincerely

  • December 18, 2008 - 7:15 pm | Permalink

    Ryan, adultery is not against the law.There is nothing in the criminal code that prohibits breaking marital vows. Adulterers can get sued for divorce, which is a civil action.

    And Mormons were hated because their leaders were serial seducers of under-aged girls, which led to their being tarred and feathered and driven from town after town in the mid-1800s. This is one of the things about Mormons that 99 percent of Americans don’t know, but what they will learn now that Mormons have decided to join the morality police.

    When Mormons advocate taking away the civil rights of adulterers, I’ll believe they’re truly driven by morality. Until then, nothing you’ve said has convinced me that religion is not being used as a cover for bigotry, which is hatred.

  • ryan
    December 19, 2008 - 4:50 pm | Permalink

    Serial seducers of under-aged girls. Who are you kidding. Not only could you not prove that that kind of crap even happened, but being driven from town after town had to do with bigotry. Where are you getting these absolutely asinine ideas, a cracker jack box. No wonder your so confused in not only your facts but your sexual gender. There’s no getting anywhere with you. YOU are as big of a bigot as any other homophobic you claim Mormons are.

    Why don’t you actually get some real facts and bring them to the table because fiction isn’t quite as interesting. You should know this at your age.

    You keep mentioning “morality police.” Well, I guess someone has to do it because it’s not going to be people like you who fall into the category of “most likely to get HIV infection”. It would seem to me that that would be a choice in it of itself not to do something with that kind of risk. You know that 1 in every 70 males in America has HIV or aids. Women: 1 in every 700. You wonder why your way of life is so frowned upon. Get a life.

  • December 20, 2008 - 8:33 am | Permalink

    Did you really think Mormons were run out of those towns because of their magic underwear and talking lizards?

    Mormons moved into towns in the Midwest where the men would lure under-aged girls into the cult. Imagine having grown men come into your neighborhood and seduce young teen-aged girls and then make them their fifth or 15th or 49th “wives.”

    Marriage back then was mostly a business arrangement. The men in those towns viewed the Mormon men as coming in and poaching the girls they’d raised with the intent of trading them for land or livestock when they married them off. They saw the Mormons as leches and thieves.

    HIV disease is devastating heterosexual families worldwide, mostly because of adultery. In this country, adulterers are much more susceptible to sexually transmitted diseases than monogamous people. (And HIV is almost nonexistent among gay women.) But Mormons and Christians have made it clear that they are happy to let adulterers remarry, have children and not get fired or evicted because of their status as sinners. That is hypocrisy.

    The easiest, most logical and, yes, most conservative way to slow the spread of AIDS among gay men is to encourage them to get married and become monogamous. Instead, Mormons and Christians are desperate to put every possible roadblock in the way of that, not because of morality, but because of their own inner demons. That is evil.

    Re-read your last comment, Ryan, and tell us you’re not consumed by homophobia — and that you’re not violating Jesus’ commandment to “judge not.” Tell us why you’re not just as hellbound as any gay person. Tell us why, as a hate-filled, judgmental sinner, you deserve civil rights but gay people don’t.

    That’s the conundrum that always comes with joining the morality police. You have to be completely without sin yourself. And we know what the Bible says about that.

    In the 1960s, it was decided that while segregationists — a group that was comprised of guess who? Christians as well as Mormons — may have had a right to their bigotry toward blacks, they didn’t have a right to codify their hatred into law. Similarly, Mormons and Christians today have the right to be homophobes, but they don’t have the right to turn their homophobia into law.

    If Christians and Mormons are allowed to make gays a separate, unequal class in the U.S. Constitution based on a few obscure references in the Bible as they have done in 30 state constitutions now, the United States will cease to be the democratic republic that was formed by the adoption of the Constitution in 1789, and instead will become something closer to the theocratic republic founded in Iran in 1979. That’s what is really at stake here.

  • ryan
    December 20, 2008 - 10:39 am | Permalink

    Jon, seriously, I am Mormon. If you really think you are going to get anywhere with this, you have got to get your facts straight.
    Where, in the history of Mormonism, was this sudden influx of “teen-aged” girls into the L.D.S. religion? Show me the history on that. You’re so consumed with “hating” the religion it’s clouded your judgment on stupid things not to say. You know why “99 percent” of Americans don’t know about your little tale, it’s because it’s not true. Instead of relying on information from anti-Mormon literature, find out about the religion for yourself.
    And obviously one is more susceptible to STDs if they have multiple partners than monogamous individuals. That’s the point.
    But it’s still funny to me that within HIV infections, the gay men community has the highest susceptibility rate. Talk about the break down of society. Does one really need to get married to suddenly realize I shouldn’t be sleeping with multiple partners so my HIV awareness will suddenly come to realization. It’s highest among you guys because your the biggest culprits of adultery.
    And you never answered my question of how many really good Mormon friends do you have? Who’s the bigot Jon? I think God also said You forgive all mankind I will forgive whom I will forgive. We don’t hate gays we just don’t like the sin. Be among us and we will treat you respectfully and welcome you. Because of your hatred, however, for you it might be a little more difficult I guess.

  • ryan
    December 20, 2008 - 11:24 am | Permalink

    Oh by the way, Do you even know what a cult is, because it’s defined as: Worship or religious devotion; especially , a form of religion. A system of religious observances. Extravagant devotion to a person, cause, or thing; also, the object of such devotion.
    So implying that Mormonism is a cult, is implying that every religion is a cult. We could consider the gay community a cult based on their extravagant devotion to their cause. Why don’t you think before you write, it makes it difficult to believe I was writing back and forth to an intelligent person.

  • December 20, 2008 - 2:49 pm | Permalink

    Believe it or not, you’re not the first Mormon who’s posted nasty lies and smears about gay people on this board and expected us to take it politely and ask for more. I suspect you wouldn’t make the equivalent vile comments to blacks, Latinos or Jews, that you feel licensed to trash gay people, because our other-ness makes us second-class citizens to you.

    I do know a bit about cults. A good friend of mine was deprogrammed out of the Unification Church, and I studied cult phenomenon then. I’d say Mormonism was a Christian cult in the early 19th century, just as Christianity was a Jewish cult in the 1st century.

    Evangelicals view Mormonism as a demonic cult because they believe Mormon dogma says that Jesus and Satan are brothers, but it’s possible Mormonism has grown beyond a cult into a bizarre, bloated bully of a religion. The fact that Mormons are so desperate not to be considered cultists is curious.

    I knew Mormons when I was a kid and had Mormon advertising clients once, but they did not know I was gay. I live in West Hollywood, one of the most liberal enclaves in the country, so we don’t get too many Mormons around here. There’s a huge temple about eight miles to the east, so I know they’re around. I met a woman through work who told me she had been engaged to a Mormon, but as they were planning the wedding, she learned there were parts of the temple where women couldn’t go, and so she ended the engagement.

  • ryan
    December 20, 2008 - 9:03 pm | Permalink

    Blah Blah Blah Jon. Nothing I’ve said about gays has been a lie. And yes, I would say the same about Blacks. Not all, but many think the world should be handed to them, just like you. “Oh, boo hoo, I’m being treated like a second-class citizen.” You keep referring to that, but you got married. So now you have the same rights don’t you?

    Who said I wasn’t saying we weren’t a cult, judging by the definition, and like I said, all religions are in fact cults.
    And nice second-hand story. “I met a woman at work who said…” Once again your ignorance is showing each time you write back. You actually don’t know anything about the Mormons and you’ll probably never try to. But that’s okay because I guess ignorance really is bliss. Must be nice to go around blabbing nonsense without knowledge.

    And I never tried to go about gay bashing, but since it came so easy to Mormon bash for you I thought I’d throw in a few facts your way to try and open your eyes a little bit.

    You are truly a hypocrite of the worst form. You crave equality and yet think the Mormons shouldn’t be able to voice their political rights. Seriously Jon, Gays are not the problem you are the problem for them. You give them a bad name. You criticize me for gay bashing and yet all you do is trash Mormonism simply because we donated more money. We’re just an easy target. Did you think all this about Mormons before prop 8? Did you hate them so badly in 2000? We just have our views as well. Get over it.

  • December 21, 2008 - 7:19 am | Permalink

    First of all, being a Mormon is a choice, being gay is not. If you don’t like being victimized because you’re a Mormon, join the UUs. Second, we’re not asking the government for anything. Our demographic pays more taxes because we don’t have a marriage exemption. Worse, you appear not to understand how our government works. The government doesn’t “give” rights; it protects them. We’re demanding our right to equal protection, a right that already exists under the California Constitution — a right that Mormons paid to have stripped from us.

    Mormons have a right to hate, but we have a right to call them on the hypocrisy of targeting us because of our alleged sins, while completely ignoring sins that actually do harm to families and society. We have a right to nail them for being judgmental, which is a mortal sin.

    You asked if I knew any Mormons, and I gave you an overview of my personal encounters. Page and I have good friends who are French, but that hardly makes us experts on France, so I don’t quite get your point. My views on religion are based on study, analysis, reading history and reflection, so they’re technically not bigotry, which is a form of ignorance. I am not an adherent of any of the Abrahamic traditions, not because of what the dogma says so much as because of what has been done under their banners over the centuries. I read the Book of Mormon when I was about 12 and have casually studied the church’s history and evolution since then. Most recently, I studied the Burnt Over District, where Mormonism originated. I’m an armchair expert on Manifest Destiny and have read voraciously about the western migration, including, apparently, historical accounts that LDS leadership would prefer to have suppressed.

    I see the current Prop 8 scandal as part of a continuum. Mormon culture was warped by its early persecution, a deformation that expresses itself in its desperation for secrecy and penchant for persecution. Over the last 30 years or so, the church has been successful in joining the mainstream, which has made it the fourth largest religion in the country. But by joining the evangelicals’ hate campaign, it has now left the mainstream and aligned itself with the fringe — a mistake that wouldn’t have happened if Hinckley were still in charge.

    You don’t get a second chance to make a first impression, as the saying goes. Most Americans got their first impressions of Mormons this year, first from Mitt Romney, one of the most unprincipled and unappealing politicians on the planet, and then, with its over-compensating support of Prop 8, as just another ugly right-wing hate group. This is going to depress growth from new members among the generation now in very early adulthood and younger who have no use for this sort of bigotry. Even the evangelicals are getting that message from young members, and anti-gay hate groups like Focus on the Family are being forced to lay off staff members. History will show that the Prop 8 scandal has put the mainstreaming of Mormonism back at least a generation or two.

    If the church continues this morality-police persecution agenda, it will invite scrutiny of its very dark legacy. (And if you think something as to be “true” to do damage, you have not been paying attention to the practices of the Republican Party over the past 16 years.) But at least one good thing will come from this scandal: Romney will never be president. The Prop 8 debacle has ruined the LDS brand politically, and the scandal will make his 180 degree flipflops on gay rights harder to square. He will enter the 2012 race on the defensive, which is a strong indicator for failure in politics.

    I don’t speak for gay people, and I doubt you speak for all Mormons, but while we’re critiquing each other, I’ll say that you have confirmed what I suspected about Mormons. On this issue, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. It’s obvious you have given it no study or introspection, you’ve just parroted here the lies and flawed analysis you’ve heard in church or on the radio. You are all deceiving yourselves about your motives — you are acting out of prejudice, not righteousness — and you have no idea, and don’t appear to care, what damage you’re doing to the real lives of real people. The idea that you can convince yourselves that Christ would endorse this sort of psychic and spiritual destructiveness is truly a blasphemy.

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