Congress, GOP & Prostitutes
The presidential campaign of Mitt Romney, left, and the FLDS polygamy scandal exposed the schism between Mormons and Christian extremists
Many people within the Christian right view Mormonism as a demonic cult, primarily because they believe Mormon dogma asserts that Jesus was the brother of Satan. So why then would Mormons donate half the $40 million budget of the Christian extremists’ Proposition 8 campaign to end the right for gays to marry in California?
By revealing their hateful, almost gleeful aggression toward gays, any inroads Mormons may have made with Christian extremists in this sorry episode could well come at the cost of hobbling their efforts to join mainstream society forever.
Some are suggesting that the Mormon leaders were attempting to align themselves with the Christian right after tensions were exposed between them and evangelicals during the presidential campaign of Mitt Romney, a lifelong Mormon whose grandfather had five wives:
The Southern Baptist Convention website categorizes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a “cult” that is “radically” different from historic, biblical Christianity.
A faith guide issued by the influential Christian right group Focus on the Family declares that “God cannot be identified … with the Mormon religion’s notion of god.” And each year, evangelical organizers behind the National Day of Prayer bar Mormons from speaking at their proceedings…
“It would be extraordinarily hard for mainline denomination people in the South to openly and strongly politick or be involved in a Mormon’s run for office,” said Bobby Welch, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation’s largest non-Catholic denomination and a fixture of the Christian right.
The division was so pronounced that Romney was forced to give a speech about his faith — an effort that was compared to John F. Kennedy’s speech on his Catholicism during the 1960 campaign. Unlike Kennedy’s speech, however, Romney’s was not well-received, mainly because it was delivered with all the emotional impact of a Powerpoint presentation.
It also hurt the Mormon cause when, two months after Romney dropped his presidential bid, a scandal erupted in which the state of Texas removed dozens of children from a compound operated by the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), a renegade polygamous Mormon sect. The visuals of the glassy-eyed “sister wives” in their 19th-century prairie dresses were a stark reminder of the Mormons’ history of polygamy, child sexual abuse and violence.
So did this spate of bad news lead the Mormon leaders to join forces with their Christian enemies, and, if so, was it a smart decision?
“The backlash is going on all over the country,” said Jan Shipps, a prominent scholar of modern Mormonism who is an emeritus professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. “There are people who had a lot of respect for the Mormons who now say, ‘Well, they’re just like the Christian right.’ ”
That’s ironic, Shipps said, given that the Mormon Church has a more tolerant stance on homosexuality than some evangelical groups. The church has pointedly declined to state that homosexuality is a choice. And it has cautioned against programs that purport to “cure” same-sex attraction, even though Mormon theology holds that marriage is a divine relationship between men and women that continues into the afterlife.
Also, Shipps said, though the church had been riding high ever since the successful 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, the gay marriage fight and other recent setbacks have forced the church to deal with skepticism over its faith and history.
First there was former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney’s unsuccessful run for the Republican presidential nomination. Many in the church were shocked that Romney’s Mormon faith was a source of discomfort for some voters.
“Latter-day Saints were just amazed to think there was such bigotry in the country,” church spokesman Michael Otterson said.
And a raid on a polygamous breakaway sect in Texas last spring was a reminder of the church’s practice of multiple marriages in the 19th century, even though the Mormon Church has long renounced polygamy.
“That whole story in Texas was probably much worse for the church’s image than Proposition 8,” Monson said.
Some have suggested that Mormons might have been eager to cement partnerships with other churches, especially because evangelical voters were particularly distrustful of Romney’s faith.
But Otterson dismissed that possibility. “That kind of thinking would never even factor into the thinking of church leadership,” he said. “The church couldn’t remain silent on a pivotal issue like this.”
The reporter apparently did not ask Otterson why a church built on plural marriage “could not remain silent” on the marriage rights of others.
What the Mormons may have under estimated here is the extent to which the Christian right requires an atmosphere of paranoia in order to keep their followers in line. Without hatred and fear of “the other” — liberals, blacks, feminists, civil rights advocates, Jews, gays and, yes, Mormons — Christian fundamentalists have nothing to offer that their adherents can’t find in mainstream churches where ministries focus on Jesus’ actual message of love and acceptance. For this reason, Mormons will always be more useful to the Christian right as enemies than as friends.
In fact, by revealing their hateful, almost gleeful aggression toward gays, any inroads Mormons may have made with Christian extremists in this sorry episode could well come at the cost of hobbling their efforts to join mainstream society forever.
Topics: Congress, GOP & Prostitutes
It is told that the Mormon Church owns more of Las Vegas than the Mafia. They are involved in gambling, pologamy, and politics. They have a history as embarrassing and utterly wrong as slavery. Why do they get away with calling themselves a church. They are masters of hypocrisy, but their mask has slipped.
[...] Mormons Join Prop 8 Fight to Woo Christian Right after Romney, FLDS Debacles? Did Mormons Join Prop 8 Fight to Woo Christian Right after Romney, FLDS Debacles? 11:18 [...]
You probably wouldn’t bother to believe a Mormon, but this is the truth:
1) Each election we hear a statement from the Church Leaderhsip that the Church does not endorse any party or candidate, but they do occasionally speak on issues. This Prop 8 business was one of those cases, obviously.
2) I have never heard a word from the pulpit about Mitt Romney. Ever.
3) I have never heard a word from the pulpit about a party (Republican or Democrat).
4) Marriage between a man and a woman is considered to be absolutely essential and sacred. Marriage between two people of the same sex is considered to be sinful. Of course, we can disagree, but that’s the LDS church’s position.
With these 4 facts, the premise of this article is absolutely wrong. The church leadership spoke up on a matter of principle as they see it. They have said that it was not an easy thing to do, as it would undoubtedly expose them to bad press. But they did it anyway. It had nothing to do with partisan politics.
Think about it: the highest ranked Mormon in politics is a Democrat – Harry Reid.
All this being said, I respect the position gays have on Prop 8. I understand it. Attacking mormons is not the way to go. The church was becoming more and more understanding of homosexuals in the past 10 years. This sets the increasingly sympathetic feelings we have had towards the gay community back a bit unfortunately.
Jack, seriously, did Mormons in Utah and elsewhere send $20 mil to Yes on 8 spontaneously, without any coordination from on high? If so, it was truly a miracle.
Is marriage between two adulterers less sinful than marriage between gays? How about fornicators? It’s been a few decades since I read the Book of Mormon but the Christian testaments treat adultery and fornication as very serious sins — the ratio that they are mentioned compared with references to gay sex is easily 100 to one. I’m not aware of any Mormon efforts to take away the rights of adulterers and sinners to remarry, or efforts to restrict adulterers’ and fornicators’ rights so that they can be fired or evicted because of their status as sinners. Why do Mormons single out gays to be treated worse than other people whose sins are arguably worse? Adultery is in the Big Ten, after all.
Trust me on this: If someone worked hard to take away your right to marry, or any right you might have, you would not care whether they liked you or not.
Hey Jack, you can have Harry Reid. We don’t want him. You can also have your “understanding” and “sympathetic feelings” toward the gay community.
I noticed you said marriage is between a man and a woman. You didn’t say one man and one woman, as Florida’s version of Prop 8 stated. But nothing about “a man” making an agreement with “a woman” would keep him from making the same agreement with several more women, right?
Mormons telling the rest of us how to live is like Dick Cheney lecturing somebody about firearms safety.
Mormons Are New Testament Christians, not Creedal Christians. Were New Testament Christians a “Cult”?
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity’s theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
Baptism:
Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.
The Trinity:
A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration? The Nicene Creed’s definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: “There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one.” Scribes later added “the Father, the Word and the Spirit,” and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. . Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit. Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.†The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts.
Theosis
Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.” Irenaeus wrote in the late 2nd Century: “we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods†Justin Martyr in mid 2nd Century said: “all men are deemed worthy of becoming ‘gods,’ and of having power to become sons of the Highest†Clement of Alexandria explained “Saints . . pure in heart . . are destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior.†The Gospel of Thomas (which pre-dates the 4 Gospels, but was considered non-canonical by the Nicene Council) quotes the Savior: “He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him,” (Gospel of Thomas 50, 28-30, Nag Hammadi Library in English, J.M.Robinson, 1st ed 1977; 3rd ed. 1988) The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) agrees with Early Christian church leaders regarding theosis.
In the words of Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie: “There is and can only be one who is supreme, who is the head and to who all others are subject”. Becoming like God is not saying we will ever be equal to Him, frankly we won’t and can’t. He, and only He, will forever be worshipped by us.
The Deity of Jesus Christ
Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sinâ€, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless.
The Cross and Christ’s Atonement:
The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection , not his crucifixion on the Cross. Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.
Definition of “Christianâ€: .
But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christianâ€. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christâ€: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer. It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians. . Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian†than their detractors.
• The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:
The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this: “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.†(Picturesque America, p. 502.) Martin Luther had similar thoughts: “Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,…unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation.” He also wrote: “I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .* * *
• Christ-Like Lives:
The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):
1. Attend Religious Services weekly
2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important
3. Believes in life after death
4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers
5. Has taught religious education classes
6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline
7. Sabbath Observance
8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith
9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily
10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)
11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality
LDS Evangelical
1. 71% . 55%
2. 52 . . 28
3. 76 . . 62
4. 100 . 95
5. 42 . . 28
6. 68 . . 22
7. 67 . . 40
8. 72 . . 56
9. 50 . . 19
10 65 . . 26
11 84 . . 35
So what do you think the motivation is for the Evangelical preachers to denigrate the Mormon Church? You would think Evangelical preachers would be emulating Mormon practices (a creed to believe, a place to belong, a calling to live out, and a hope to hold onto) which were noted by Methodist Rev. Kenda Creasy Dean of the Princeton Theological Seminary, as causing Mormon teenagers to “top the charts†in Christian characteristics. It seems obvious pastors shouldn’t be denigrating a church based on First Century Christianity, with high efficacy. The only plausible reason to denigrate Mormons is for Evangelical pastors to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
Further Reading: http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
[...] don’t know if they’ve taken up their crusade as a way to suck up to the right’s (increasingly irrelevant?) wingnut base in a cynical attempt to get Mitt the dog lover into the White House, or if it’s something [...]
It seems liberals are only willing to tolerate religion when it is basically irrelevant.
The moment the religion looks like it may have some real societal influence, all pretense of tolerance evaporates however.
We’ll put up with you, as long as you confine yourself to bake sales and quiet muttering in private. But the moment you try to change society according to those values you believe in… can’t have that.
Rathje, this argument is not about religion. It’s about bigotry. Bigotry does not warrant being “tolerated.”
Here’s proof that Christians’ objections to gay marriage is not about faith: Religious people are demanding that gays lose their civil rights because of their status as sinners. But, as noted in the comment above, adultery and fornication are sins that the Bible holds to be as just as bad or, I would argue, worse than having gay sex. Plus, unlike gay marriage, adultery is a clear and proven threat to “traditional” marriage, since more than half of marriages end in divorce, and adultery is more often than not a factor in divorce. There is no evidence that gay marriage has caused a singe traditional marriage to end. (Ironically, the divorce rate is higher among self-described conservative Christians than among normal people.)
When religious people start going after the civil rights of adulterers with the same bloodthirsty glee that they persecute gays, I’ll believe they are sincere. (And if that ever happens, here’s a bet: Only the women involved in the adulteries and fornication will be punished.)
Of course, religious people will never attempt to restrict the civil rights of adulterers and fornicators because, as noted, this is not about religion. It’s about fear, ignorance and the twisted self-loathing of people who can’t admit even to themselves that they are attracted to people of the same gender.
Trish -
The article “a” implies one. Now your just being snippy.
The point of my post was to refute the article, not debate the merits of gay marriage.
Did you notice I didn’t put in my own opinions on gay marriage? I was merely restating the Church’s stated position.
Gays villifying Mormons is cynical, truely hateful (and not just rhetorially “hateful”) and counterproductive.
How can I continue to be more and more understanding of gay rights when they continue to bash me so much?
People have long memories – this won’t help, which saddens me quite frankly. I was glad that the church moderated it’s position on same sex attraction. Now that the gays are demonizing mormons, it will be hard to take all those nasty words back (like “Mormon scum” etc, etc). It’s an immature response that damages the gay rights movement.
Jack, I questioned the Mormon Church’s hypocrisy on gay marriage vis a vis their singling out gays and letting adulterers and fornicators keep their rights, not your take on gay marriage, which you did not state.
The idea that Mormons launched a concerted attack against the civil rights of a minority group but expected no blowback bespeaks a level of naivete that suggests Mormons need to stay out of hardball politics. Or rather they should have. It is too late now.
There’s nothing snippy about bringing up polygamy when the subjects of marriage and Mormons come up. The ONLY reason Mormons ever relented on polygamy was because Utah was becoming a state instead of a territory and the federal government outlawed it. To this day, official church doctrine says Mormons men will have multiple wives in the afterlife.
But if you want snippy, Jack, here’s some snippy: It’s only been two weeks since we were forced to deal with Mormons and I am already tired of your braying about being misunderstood and maligned. I wish you would all crawl back to whatever boulder in the desert (Deseret?) you came out from under and stay there. Seal yourselves to as many wives as you wish, just do it without expecting anyone else’s indulgence — or gratitude.
Trish -
You’ve moved from Snippy to just down right nasty.
I have never met a polygamist and I’ve been a member for nearly 40 years. Polygamists are excommunicated. Bringing it up is just being nasty.
Can I expect you to be civil and respectful at any point Trish? If not, I suppose we’re wasting each other’s time.
Jon -
Adultery and fornication are obviously outside the guidelines the LDS church proscribes.
Blaming the Mormons only is completely pointless. Floridians voted the same way but at a 60% margin. The LDS “footprint” in Florida is completely minimal.
This is just people lashing out counter productively.
The only reason I speak up here, is because I actually care about Gay folk.
Even the conservative WSJ blames the Mormons:
Mormons Boost Antigay Marriage Effort
This is an interesting little factoid pulled from the article linked above:
…In the 1970s, for example, it [the Mormon church] opposed the Equal Rights Amendment.
Just plain & simple, religious conservatives funded these propositions [CA, FL & AZ] seeking to legislate morality, based on their interpretation of the Bible.
That’s not good enough for a melting pot country like the U.S.
As for Florida … maybe a lawsuit will show us where that money came from:
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Flor…mendment_(2008)
Lawyers for the Florida Red and Blue amendment opposition group filed a lawsuit on October 28 to force the pro-amendment group to disclose its donors and take their TV ads off the air. The lawsuit seeks:
The identification of donors to two groups, the Florida Family Action and the Florida Family Policy Council. These groups are headed by John Stemberger and are linked to the political campaign committee, Florida4Marriage, that put the initiative on the ballot.
Florida4Marriage did not itself pay for a recent burst of pro-amendment TV advertising; rather, F4M (which is required to disclose its donors) reported an in-kind donation from the Florida Family Action group. That group says it is not required to disclose its donors; the lawsuit challenges that contention.
[snip]
http://www.flfamily.org/welcome_letter.php?aboutid=3
The Florida Family Policy Council (FFPC) is a state based pro-life, pro-family, pro-marriage educational advocacy group. We are associated with Dr. James Dobson and Focus on the Family.
Jack, you are definitely wasting mine.
Jack, If you sincerely care about gay folk, then you have some work to do internally on your own thinking. As I have said elsewhere, gay marriage is coming, just as surely as “colored only” water fountains have gone away.
Instead of wasting your time trying to convince gay people and their supporters to stand down from the fight for civil rights, which is never going to happen, you should be working on the other side to help them see that they are on the wrong side of history, and that their actions now are going to be humiliating to them sooner rather than later — not unlike how the the adults in that vicious white mob must have felt in the months and years after they spat on the children going to school on that first day in Little Rock.
Hey Jack, I understand. I have been reading these blogs for weeks now and have just recently responded. The people responding don’t want to talk or be understanding or loveing or whatever. I have been suprised by the “practice love” and junk they preach but never show. You might be wasting your time. I know I have. Like they say, don’t cast your pearls before swine.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not that strident in its beliefs on homosexuality. In fact, they counsel full fellowship for celibate homosexuals. There is a congregation in Salt Lake City composed of non-practicing homosexuals who wish to keep Christ’s commandments.
So far, no gay-rights activist has had the fortitude to burn a Qur’an on the doorstep of a militant mosque where imams advocate the stoning of homosexuals (even celibate ones).
Oh, I forgot, criticizing Moslems is off-limits for the Politically Correct. The Moslem imams might issue a “fatwa†on all homosexuals
First of all, with the notable exception of Scientology, most cults that operate in America call themselves Christians. Take the Unification Church, for example. The Moonies will tell you that they are, first and foremost, Christians.
Second, Islam already has a fatwah, as you put it, against gays. Just last year, two young teen-aged boys were beheaded in the public square in Iran because they were gay. Plus, the central high command of American Islam, did not instruct its followers to donate $20 million to fight Prop 8, as the Mormon leadership did.
As a gay person whose rights were taken away by Mormon activism and money last month, your assertion that the Mormon Church is “not that strident in its beliefs on homosexuality” is evidence of delusion or deception on your part.
Finally, the idea that gay people would deny who they are, as you describe it, in order to meet the approval of a bunch of moralizing hypocrites is both sad and depraved. Is there a similar congregation of non-practicing adulterers in the Mormon Church? How about fornicators? Former shrimp eaters? People who have worked on Sunday but now repent?
Mormons have singled out homosexuality as a special class of sin, and that is, first, un-Christian in the sense of Christ’s message, and a mortal sin in that Christ said, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
So — see you in hell!
Jon, no on 8 let their rights be taken away. You guys didn’t go out to the minorities I have read all about it. The minority groups got together to start their own no on 8 but without any help from the actual no on 8. Prop 8 was something that took away your freedom to marry right? Then why the heck did they not do more? There are gays all over the world, did anyone ask them to help?
The mormon leaders didn’t ask the members to get together $20 million. They asked them do donate money if they could. That is what the members pulled together and did. No on 8 had the same amount of time and even more resources.
Look you missed what Mormons are Christians meant. The mormons believe in something called the law of chastity. Being chaste. That is anything sexual is to be done in marriage. There is one huge reason for that. Because when a man has sex with a woman they have the potential to make a child. and if they are married the chances of them staying together and raising the child together are greater. Family is very important to the mormons. Families that can grow and continue. They can get married have children, and their children can later get married and have children, and their children will have children and so on and so forth. A gay couple can never ever have children without scientific intervention!!!! Jon you will never have a child with your husband. That is what the mormons are fighting for. They are pro life. Colonies of gay men or gay women will only last as long as the oldest person living. There joy ends in their partner and will never continue through the child they make with their partner because two gay people cannot have a child that carries both of their blood. That is what they are fighting for Jon, their own family. Just like you are. Except when their mom and dad die the family will not end it iwill live on through their children.
First, your facts are wrong. Post-election analysis has found that race was not the main factor behind Prop 8’s passage — it was education level. Well-educated people of all races voted against Prop 8, while people with little education voted for it.
But your argument here just won’t fly. Tens of millions American straight couples don’t have children, and yet their marriages give them happiness and comfort. By your rationale, the government should rescind their marriage licenses because they’re childless.
It is un-American to have one set of laws for straight people and another for gays. Nothing you can say can change that fact.
un-American? America is about life and freedom. The pilgrims left their countries to come here and have freedom. You give up freedoms, natural freedoms, with sexual activities with members of the same sex. That is what is sad to me. No I believe this country is so focused on freedoms that we have forgotten the meaning. We have traffic laws, why? You are free to live by them or not. If you disobey those laws things can happen to where you lose your freedoms. You cross over the double yellow and you might hit another car. You could die or be disabled, you gave up your freedom right there to live a normal healthy life. But what happens in your house doesn’t effect my house right? Yeah tell that to the thousands of families who have lost loved ones to drunk driving. They didn’t choose for their families to die from a drunk driver hitting them. That drunk driver had the freedom to choose to drink and drive, we have laws against it but nobody is forcing them. Yeah there are a lot of married couples that don’t have kids because they don’t want them. The mormons, share with them the importants and beauty of offspring. If the pilgrims were gay none of us would be here. If the Native americans who once owned this land were gay none of us would be here. If all the nations were homosexuals the world would end, because there would be no offspring!! I don’t know why that is confusing.
You deserve rights Jon. But it is sad that you give up soooo many natural freedom through homosexuality. But I mean kudos to you. I am sure your children would love to choose their sexuality and be a part of this life but they never will because niether you nor your husband can have one. Yeah, put science in the mix, the two of you will still never have a child that is from the both of you.
Max, why are you and your friends so obsessed with gay marriage?
Hey I am just responding to a blog. Sharing my opinion about opinions shared.
Hey I am just responding to a blog. Sharing my opinion about opinions shared. How about you, why are you so obsessed with mormons? Can you imagine what would have happened if all the other religions were organized too. Could you imagine the difference the no on 8 could have made if they were more together and organized.
I’m sure Mormons would like to join a super-organization of religions to root out what they selectively perceive as immorality in America, as you suggest, but that is never going to happen.
The church could have raised $20 million to feed the hungry, clothe the poor or house the homeless. Instead, it raised half the money for a campaign of hatred built on lies and smears that stripped taxpaying Americans of equal rights. As a result, the church has millions of enemies now that it didn’t have before.
In joining the persecution of gays, Mormon leaders hoped to form alliances with the evangelicals — the least tolerant of all Americans and the same group who rejected Mitt Romney because of his Mormonism in 2008 and whose antecedents in the 19th century tarred and feathered Mormon leaders and drove them from their towns.
By appointing themselves to the morality police, Mormons have invited scrutiny of their own sordid past. Most Americans don’t know about Mountain Meadows or about the actions by early Mormon leaders — the abuse of children and women — that incited the tarring and feathering. They don’t know about the magic underwear, the “spiritual” polygamy that is still being practiced today and other beliefs and practices that will seem bizarre to normal people. Americans will learn about it all now, and when they do, all the work by church leaders over the past 50 years to mainstream Mormonism will be flushed away.
But the choice was made, and there is no turning back. The persecuted have become the persecutors. Check your history books to see how that usually turns out.
Comparing gay marriage to drunk driving is ugly and offensive, but mainly it’s illogical. My marriage has harmed no one. Quite the opposite in fact: It made our mothers, the rest of our families and our friends and their kids very happy that we could enjoy this right after 29 years together.
Finally, Max, only two groups of people are obsessed with gay issues. Gay people and closeted gay people. People who are comfortable and secure about their own sexuality are not threatened by the sexuality of others.
You always have an interesting choice of words Jon. According to you everyone who voted for the president in California, Arizona, and Florida must be gay right. To be obsessed would be to participate in the gay vote right? No on 8, yes on 8, they must all be gay too. Oh excuse me Gay or closeted gay. Jon that is like saying those obsessed with murderers theives and robbers must be either murderers theives or robbers or people who are in the closet about it. I guess that means all of the police and the CSI units and such are all murderers…wait something is wrong with that isn’t it.
You know, I am going to just say if you are obsessed with mormonism it means two things either you are a mormon or you are in the closet about wanting to be one. Wow jon, all you have to do know is get baptized because you must be wanting to be a mormon!!! Way to go!
If I wanted to learn about muslisms would I talk to baptists? If I wanted to know about mormons would I talk to a jew? If I wanted to learn math would I get math classes from an english instructor who only teaches english? No I wouldn’t. If you really want to know about mormons jon go to the church talk to members without first attacking them with hate. I have talked to you and others in hopes to get to know the gay community, but you have not given a very good impression at all. All I see is selfishness and after the election I have seen bitterness and hate. I was silly to think there was any decency in you. You have proven me wrong. You have been rude and hateful from the beginning.
Jon you seem happy. Obviously you are surrounded by happy people too. Have a good life. The mormons teach that living Gods ways will bring you eternal happiness, because that is what God has taught. I testify to you that the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints is the church of God here on earth. There are real prophets on the earth again who can help us to know Gods plan. Each and everyone of us can pray to God ourselves and learn what he has to say to us. This is true. You too can talk to God and he will talk to you. He can show anyone how to live. The pleasures of this earth last as long as this earth. God has shown the way for happiness here on earth that will last through this life and into the life to come and into the eternities. I know this is true. I have prayed about it and God has spoken to me. He can speak to you, he is your loving heavenly father. I testify of this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
You’re protesting too much, Max. Whatever it’s true cause, obsessing about other people’s sex lives shows emotional immaturity.
I don’t speak for any gay people. I’m speaking for me. In the scheme of things, I don’t know that many gay people beyond casual acquaintances — and I live in West Hollywood. The vast majority of my friends happen to be straight, because what other people do in bed is is not on my list of criteria for seeking new friends.
The fact that you thought I’m an ambassador from Gayville might explain why you thought I would just take your insults and smears politely and ask for more. That’s the same exaggerated sense of entitlement that Mormons had about Prop 8 — thinking you could fund a hate campaign but not suffer retaliation.
Good luck with the prophets and all that. I sincerely hope we get the opportunity to vote on restricting Mormons’ civil rights some day, too.